Man Made: Good Guys Who Drink and Cuss a Little

Iron Sharpens Iron: Zac Parsons on his wavering atheism

Jeff sat down with Zac Parsons to discuss the decisions we make, the risks of NOT doing things, and the spiritual things we do alone and with others. 
 
Digitally Generated Transcript
Jeff Stucke: For good, or is he? 
Zac Parsons: I learned I learned from the best. 
Jeff Stucke: All right. Are we rolling here, like, here we go. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah, we're we're rolling. So yeah, like I said, you. You said you sent me a text and it was. I think we need to discuss your wavering atheism. 
Jeff Stucke: Was it that I I thought I would have been harsher than that. But OK, let's. 
Zac Parsons: And that was, yeah. Well, I mean you you weren't sure like if you needed to treat me with with kid gloves or if this is like more bare knuckle brawl kind of thing. OK yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: That that. Yeah. So. So I went to Peru on a spiritual journey and felt as though I achieved enlightenment. And now you're. 
Zac Parsons: Well, and well and you got to we got to debrief on that together, which was kind of amazing. Like there was this, this window in our schedules to where. 
Jeff Stucke: What are you doing, man? 
Zac Parsons: I mean, we had like a good 90 minute walk together like sort of able to sort of unpack, you know, as much of it, you know as we could together and I was like. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. Wow goes. I never in my wildest dreams that I think I'm going to go recommit my life to Jesus Christ. The result of that of that walk, which is like, where did I **** **? Like what? Like what? 
Zac Parsons: Which which you haven't done right. Well, OK, so this is, this is what I'm excited to to figure out what. So so I got to experience your sort of spiritual reawakening, you know, after the fact and and kind of bathe in your after glow a little bit. And now that was what, like four months ago, five months ago. OK. So you're 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: And if I'm projecting, you need to redirect me. That's fine. Like you're you're sort of, you've you've come back down to earth a little bit and and you've had to sort of reintegrate that high into, like, the daily rhythms of your life and, like, get your wife, like, sort of up up to speed on, like, OK, so I'm. I'm like, at this level right now, how do we. 
Jeff Stucke: No worries, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: That we work with this is that is that all sort? 
Jeff Stucke: Of yeah, reintegration. Yeah, is infinitely more complex than I thought, because it is such. They. Out of the norm experience, I mean one, you know when you're 52 years old and you get on a plane and you go get on a boat and you go to a village in the Amazon, most people think, oh, well, Jeff lost his ******* mind. And then to have the overall experience with the plant medicines, but then also. The ritual, like the sacred ancient ritual like it all, of all of those things combined. Any one of those would be significant, right? Just going to Peru or. Participating in ancient ritual. 
Zac Parsons: Was this your first trip to South America as well or OK, OK. 
Jeff Stucke: Not South America, but first, first trip to Peru. Yeah, and then. And then, OK, now the cherry on top is you're going to be introduced to plant medicines, one of which is the most profound hallucinogen on the planet. Like, yeah. OK, so then. To your point, coming back and like. How the hell do I reintegrate this into my experience to which I thought you and I were somewhat kindreds on that. But then there's just. 
Zac Parsons: What is? Say, we're not still kindred spirits on this. Let's let that's why we're going to find out. Exactly. Exactly. 
Jeff Stucke: Put them. Hence this conversation. Like what? So I am interested very much in because spiritual journey has been common ground for both of us. What the ****'* going on with you? 
Zac Parsons: Well, well, first I just, I just want to also sort of like draw out the fact that that you and I actually have like a a brief history of of sort of trying to get to this sort of spiritual place through plant medicines or I guess that's maybe not technically true like we tried to do. DMT together and and we're ultimately like kind of unsuccessful just there, there was just some technical things and and it also probably lacked the ceremony the the ritualist I mean it definitely lacked the the ritualistic element of like we were. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, right. 
Zac Parsons: Like fit it into like mid morning on on a on a busy Saturday like on Main Street. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. Yeah. Like, yeah. Right, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: So so that that's interesting to me that it's like if there is some sort of great spirit that sort of called you down there. One of the things I remember from your story is. Because it was what a 10/10 day process, 12 day process. Two weeks. OK, so this wasn't like come in for like a weekend and rah rah and head back home like there was a preparatory like week plus to where you were actually being purged. 
Jeff Stucke: Essentially, 2 weeks? Yeah. Yep. 
Zac Parsons: Of. Both physical and psychological, spiritual things that were sort of in you and on you that we didn't take those steps at all. When when we tried before and that almost feels like that's right. Like we didn't. We didn't come to it with the right level of humility. 
Jeff Stucke: Well, and that was. Agreed and. That was predicated by three months abstinence of sex. Any mind altering substances and? 
Zac Parsons: I don't. I knew this part three months. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. Three months. Yes. And so the. 
Zac Parsons: Good for you. Is that the long you've ever gone without sex? Ohh, have you ever gone 3 days? 
Jeff Stucke: Like what? And and that did create some relational tension because it it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Wow. 
Jeff Stucke: OK, what? 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. You're not just affecting yourself in this. Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: What? Like what are you doing? Like you're first of all, I don't understand all of this going to Peru like. For you, from Anna's perspective, it was. It felt very personal, like your life is so like. Unhappy that you have to do this so she saw it, right? 
Zac Parsons: It's a judge. She's seeing it as a judgment of, like, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like, what are you looking for? Look at. Look at all this. Good that we have kind of thing. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. She saw it as kind of a 180, whereas for me this is like, no, this has been an upward trajectory to where now it's. This. It's this is, you know, this is my end zone, so to speak and. 
Zac Parsons: I can see like a three-dimensional axis when you were saying that, yeah, it's not like you're turning from this way to this way. It's like, I don't know, we're we're going up, right? 
Jeff Stucke: We're we're going. We're going higher, right. And and in that, which I understandably so felt personal to her. What? I don't know what you're going to go do. You're going to go for two weeks. Going to the ******* Amazon. Like, so just there were so many complexities in that. And then having to hold to the certainty that I know I need to do this. Which? 
Zac Parsons: Did it feel like a calling? Would you use that word or no? 
Jeff Stucke: UMI mean the word I would use a certainty. It was just it was. 
Zac Parsons: It This it will be done or you need to do it or if you don't it won't leave you alone kind of thing. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, there there have been. Multiple experiences. I don't know if you've read green lights by Matthew McConaughey, but twice, OK? 
Zac Parsons: And have gifted it to my stepson. 
Jeff Stucke: It the the many things about it were impactful, but. One of the things that just continued to be kind of a undertone in his book was the fear of not doing something, whereas for most of us, when we're confronted with something, you know our minds automatically, I mean evolutionarily start to say, what are the costs of doing this? And then to hear his narrative and like, some of the **** that he did just because he was afraid of, like, what if I don't? So that that resonated with me on the level of. Of. OK, I'm not like that. I'm always like, you know, cost benefit and like, no, I'm not going to take the risk. But then so there was a fear for me of I can't miss out on what could happen and. You know, and there were some sacrifices with my kids. Like there were some things going on that we had planned together that were, you know, mostly nominal. But it was still like, God, am I just a ******* here. But I I just the certainty of I have to go experience this. So the three months prior to the emotion. 
Jeff Stucke: Internal angst, if you will, of in the midst of angst, doubts in the midst of my kids, doubts in the midst of some other people that you don't have anyone that says this is a good idea, Jeff. 
Zac Parsons: Well, and and I I have a suspicion with your you know background in what, 3 decades of psychology. You know, I don't know how long you've been studying. Yeah. So, like, you understand how people can ******** themselves and delude themselves and. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, 2525 years. Man. 
Zac Parsons: Probably going to come up in our conversation, especially directed towards me probably, but also you apply that to yourself and you're like looking in the mirror like. Am I ************ myself here? If the people who love me don't necessarily see it as clearly as I do, but then that's also sort of like a natural tendency for if you see someone you love doing something that's risky, you want to protect them and and they they won't be able to see. The the benefits and the sacrifices that you have sort of decided, yes, I'm willing to make this sacrifice because they just see the risks. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes. And I think that. In the sense that we could use your word calling part of the sense of calling was exactly that that for me in my where I needed to grow, it was. You're doing this. You're doing this by yourself. And in the wake of massive self doubt. I mean, once you get on that ******* plane, bro, it's like, oh, ****. Oh, ****. Oh, ****. You know, so you're constantly teetering on this sense. 
Zac Parsons: You made a leap. Did you feel you could turn back at that point, or did that feel like a point of no return? 
Jeff Stucke: One of the I the I had made a commitment to myself that there was no turning back in spite of, you know, whatever level of anxiety I had. Whatever level of self doubt it was just I just had this mantra that I repeated 7 gazillion times, was due. The next thing you know, whatever it was once you got off the plane, get through custom, do the next thing. Do the next thing and. That just from a psychological perspective and just kind of rewiring my mind that we're not listening to the fears like we're just we're doing the next thing and I'm now in a country where I don't speak the language totally alone, about to go meet people and, you know, so it. So all of these different aspects and it was. Like. Having to hold on to the certainty of I know I need to do this and. That's always been a struggle for me. I've always, you know, well, raising kids has been the biggest, you know, that's my thing. That was my thing. Like anything else is like, fine. But it's like you sacrifice a lot for your children and not in a sense like, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Sure. But but there and I remember this from your conversation. So you've had a couple of you had a solo sort of podcast sort of explaining your your health scare and the the biggest fear that you had to face with that had to do with, like, the idea of, like, never seeing your kids again. And as much as you were willing to sacrifice. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes. 
Zac Parsons: The idea of. Sacrificing yourself? I don't know if that's the exactly the right way to put it, but like knowing that that might happen or it will happen someday, hopefully you will die before your kids do. And like they won't have you there in this form or whatever. Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Ohh it's going to right. 
Zac Parsons: And knowing that if if something profound happens which you're hoping does happen, that might actually even affect that, that relationship, that that is so sacred informative. And is is such a core part of your. 
Jeff Stucke: Identity already? Yes, it was only unknowns. Like, you know, it's just these are all unknowns and and it just so interesting the way that the relationship with the shaman, the progressions of the ceremonies, I think people here ayawaska. 
Jeff Stucke: And you know, it's like they think frat party, you know, like. 
We're like, yeah. Now let's go get sucked up into the. 
Jeff Stucke: Balls and it's like this is the furthest from that. This is such a such a sacred process. 
Jeff Stucke: That, that, that fear. And you know, you and I talked about this and maybe we get into it more. Maybe not. But it's like the third ayahuasca ceremony was like I'm I am now just waiting to die. Like it's happening. It's not. And it, you know, the the level of that and then. 
Zac Parsons: Right. I believe you, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: You know, one of the commitments that you know, one of my favorite quotes is death smiles as us all. All we can do is smile back and. It's like, yeah, death is coming. Like, that's not a morbid thought. That's just simply reality. Like death is coming. And I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he was talking about the passing of his father. And when, you know, his father was on Hospice, he didn't have much time left. He his. He he wells Greg Allen, a mutual friend of ours and he asked his dad, like, how are you and kind of a philosophical sense. And his dad looked at him and said I'm satisfied. And it's like, yes. 
Zac Parsons: Wow. Give me. 
Jeff Stucke: That when death smiles the the that's you know I'm satisfied, man. I, I I did the things and yeah, so all all of that there were so many so many facets of that but. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Have you recorded like a like a a down like a verbal sort of download of yourself, like trying to walk through? That yet OK. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. And still trying to grasp it. It's, you know, because the, the intensity of it, it's just. To capture something that for us in a Western orientation, that's nuts. You know, like we we trust in Big Pharma, we don't trust in shown. 
Zac Parsons: I'll take the FDA approved ayahuasca, please. 
Jeff Stucke: Which believe it or not, we're trying to monetize that. So yeah, what could possibly go wrong? 
Zac Parsons: Ohh. Not not shocking at all. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. And then and then the thought of it that it there that it would be divorce? Just of the ritual that it would be divorce. I mean, there's just you. You know, there there's anything worth it is that's not easy. There is no easy path to something that is worth it. 
Zac Parsons: I I just like it's, you know, we're waiting for like we're going to have a conversation and go where needs to go like yeah. Something just totally came out to me like being divorced from the rituals so soon I think we're going to go into sort of my. My turning my metanoia we get to use like, you know, fun Greek words because we both have a background in ministry. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: But let's let's do this. Let's try and like somewhat quickly, but as best as we can remember, try and recapitulate our like 10 plus year relationship when when do you remember meeting me? 
Jeff Stucke: Vividly Madeleines restaurant and my business. Partner and the time. 
Zac Parsons: Wait, was it was it madeleines? I thought it was. This is. This is so great that we're already misremembering it. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. No, no it's I'm wrong. You're. You're right, I'm wrong. 
Zac Parsons: It it was Joe's Lorenzo's. Is that right? OK, that's what I remember. It's OK here to correct the record. 
Jeff Stucke: Yep. Yep, Yep. Yep. Yep. That's signal. You're exactly right. I was. I was. I was seeing Lorenzo's but. 
Zac Parsons: You're at all time like Evansville guy, but this was an East Side restaurant, so that's probably why you were confused because you're a westsider. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's been a minute. But, and I just remember, like at the time. You had you had some training, I think Albert Bandura program or? What was the? 
Zac Parsons: It was connected. Yeah. The Pacific Institute up in Seattle. But they they definitely, like, leaned heavily on Al Bender. As you know, model of self efficacy and and all. 
Jeff Stucke: OK. Of that, yeah. And it was just. I I don't know that the meeting itself was productive other than just kind of establishing rapport. The report that I felt that was like, OK, that's. That's a relationship that I want to keep visiting because you were definitely asking questions about, you know, the philosophical sorts of things and and spiritual journeys and those kinds of things. And I would, for me, I was at a stage where I was very dissatisfied in what I considered my spiritual life. Because I was in a very unhealthy marriage, I was still. Clinging to a faith that really had no meaning or substance to me and like. 
Zac Parsons: Were you still, like, serving at the church at that point as well, like in that sort of cognitive dissonance of, like, I don't believe this, but I don't know how to publicly. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Disengage in an appropriate way and and you you. Is that saying too much? 
Jeff Stucke: No, that's I I had still. 
Zac Parsons: You had a break at some point and I don't think you'd had it yet publicly. 
Jeff Stucke: No, I had not at that point. Yeah, the the total break it was kind of like when when I finally filed for divorce. And then it was like, well, ****. I mean, I might as well go all in now. Yeah. And it's so interesting because when you decide and I don't know how uniquely of a Christian thing this is, but it's like when you say, OK, Christianity is not for me. You don't just get, you don't. 
Zac Parsons: These band aids coming off. 
Jeff Stucke: Get to do that. It's like. 
Zac Parsons: Now I got some serious social consequences. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, and and it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Especially in a town like this. 
Jeff Stucke: Literally I'm the same person I was 15 minutes ago. Like and you get you. Actually, for me. And well, I've I've observed this as well is you get pushed in a category that you may not want to embrace. It's like oh were you are you an atheist now and it's like I don't know man like I. 
Zac Parsons: Don't. You're getting pushed out of a category that might not even been. Accurate for you. Otherwise, like when people see someone and and they say, well, I'm a Christian, well, I'm a Christian. Those aren't necessarily the same thing like. 
Jeff Stucke: Typically, they're necessarily not the same thing. 
Zac Parsons: Right, right. Is are there, you know, 8, if there were 8 billion Christians, then there would probably be 8 billion gods or, or at least at some level, the difference is in how they're able to, to perceive and participate with something like God is so informed by their experiences and perceptions and. 
Jeff Stucke: Myopically, yeah. I mean, yeah. And that was. And so it's like, I got forced into this place, which I really I didn't care. I mean, it's. 
Zac Parsons: That time of day. Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Helpful because you. 
Zac Parsons: Or an identifying as an atheist is that. 
Jeff Stucke: I didn't give a ****. I'm like, I'm not that like I'm. 
Zac Parsons: But you got put in that category very quickly. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, and even pushed beyond that towards like, are you kidding me? Like I? 
Zac Parsons: I was identifying that way. I think when we met, I don't know if you remember the conversation going to like atheism or Christianity or believing I I I don't remember. If in that first conversation it went there. But I remember identifying that way as an atheist in sort of those early two or three years of my deconversion is. 
Jeff Stucke: What I would call it, and that's one of the things one of the pivots like and then we'll shift to your. But like in Peru, it was like. I mean, half the group was from the states. Half the group was from Russia and did not speak a lick of English. And but all of us were on this journey and we were all on this journey together and. And and that's really it. It was just like, OK, we are travelers that are moving together towards some end and interested in each other's process. And that was one of the things that was so beautiful we we developed. I developed such a strong rapport. 
Zac Parsons: Hmm. 
Jeff Stucke: With the people from Russia. 
Zac Parsons: Who? Whose language? Like you guys actually couldn't communicate with words. 
Jeff Stucke: No. And yet there was this. 
Zac Parsons: You're sharing meals together and stuff and and. 
Jeff Stucke: But they're kind of at their end of the table where, but there's no, this is not a division of, it's a division of practicality. It's like, well, we can speak Russian, they speak English. And so that, you know, it's like, and they're going to talk more and we're going to talk more. There was no sense of you go to your end of the table. It it just. But there there was this overall experience. That if I can borrow from christianese, you know, as as we talked about, like the body of Christ, bro, you felt that this fellowship, that's a good word too was. 
Jeff Stucke: Was profound, and the communion, the communion of. 
Zac Parsons: Hmm. 
Jeff Stucke: Of the plant medicine ceremonies. Because you, you know, the first week we again you were Speaking of the physical purification. Sanango ain't fun, bro. It is not for the faint of heart. It is not it. Is not a. 
Zac Parsons: You gotta coming out of both ends, you know, every day? Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Everywhere. I mean, it's like you're in menopause. You're having hot flashes. I mean, it's so you're communing and suffering with people. 
Zac Parsons: Compassion. Suffering with. 
Jeff Stucke: Dude. Yeah, I mean. 
Zac Parsons: I'm struck by I I I had forgotten this part of the story that, at least in some sense, both groups, cultures were kind of formed by Christianity like the the sort of Western, you know, Catholic, Protestant, you know, America that that we sort of live in and then sort of the Russian. Orthodox Church and its influence in in Russia, very broad strokes. But I'm I'm kind of struck by that. Ohh the the shaman was Cathy. 
Jeff Stucke: With the Catholic shaman. What again, whatever that means to him, I don't like. It's like, wait, you know what? 
Zac Parsons: Sure. OK. Yeah. OK. Right. You're right. I just put them in a box and I shouldn't. 
Jeff Stucke: But it, but it was fascinating because in some of our discussions, you know, he views Christ as a shaman, as a great shaman. And it just it all of that is just. 
Zac Parsons: We weren't taught that in our in our church. 
Jeff Stucke: New yeah, right. 
Zac Parsons: Jesus, the shaman. Now let's let's have communion. 
Jeff Stucke: So and then back to you and his relationship, I know some of the other kind of milestone events was both of us getting divorced. And you know like ****, where do we go? From here. 
Zac Parsons: Well, and and even when you were just talking about like, you know, stuff with Anne over the past, you know, six months or so, this, this idea of being unequally yoked. Like, I remember that it's, I mean it's it's a very vivid common term within Christian marriages. And I mean, you're a therapist. You're dealing with Christians and former Christians, people who've like. Like this is a normal thing when you have people on two different growth paths and it. Is. It is sometimes excruciating to hang on when you're growing in two different directions. And yeah, in in both of our cases, there was a a, A cleaving and a braking and a. Aftermath that affected our three kids and you've got 2 girls and a boy and I've got 2 girls and a boy and you're about, I don't know, 8-10 years older than me. I'm 44 right now. OK, so there you go between 8:00 and 10:00 is 9. Right. And so I'd always sort of looked at you as somebody who was a step or two or three sort of ahead of me. 
Jeff Stucke: 53 so yeah. 
Zac Parsons: In a similar journey like how you were drawn into psychology after. Ministry, which was similar to me and then you know, like you had the kids at those different stages. And so I always kind of felt like, OK. Actually similar to I I would use Matthew Mcconaughey's example of how he would often look at himself 10 years in the future and sort of project back as to help his younger or current self understand what to expect and grow into in the future. Like to the extent where he thanks himself. Ten years in the future at the Academy Awards, and I remember like, thinking that was bizarre. But after thinking about it even further, it's like. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: That's kind of what I did with Jeff. 
Zac Parsons: So and now I'm the age thereabouts. When I met you. But the only thing is. I can't catch. You. I keep trying, but you're still nine years ahead of me. But yeah, so so we, we we have sort of had these moments and sort of the public breaking from church and. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. Appreciate the effort. 
Zac Parsons: Similar personality types of being willing to have challenging conversations with people, being totally comfortable with public speaking, podcasting not having areas of conversation like off limits like you have a very awesome podcast called Man made where you would bring your guests. Fun and it's like, buckle up. Was the word that just came to mind and and you guys used the sort of car, you know, metaphor, you know, so Greg's behind the wheel, keeping things safe and you're, you know, with the drink in hand in the shotgun position. 
Zac Parsons: Ready to to force him to grip that wheel as tightly as was needed, and so in some ways we just have, like, this similar calling of if it needs to be done in public, let's do it. If we need to have the hard conversation, let's do it. And since. The whole. Leaving Christianity and even like bonding over. Well, yeah, that's ********. I mean, isn't it so nice to be able to talk about how that's ******** and that's ********. And then within the last, like, month or so. Still committed to that same like ideal of I'm going to have. I'm going to follow where I feel led, even if it's uncomfortable. Even if it rocks the boat, makes relationships weird, causes difficult relationships to happen, and I knew that you would be one of those people that I'd have to have a difficult relationship. Excuse me. A difficult conversation with in order to continue the. Honesty and like sort of like intenseness intensity of of our relationship because I feel like when you came back from Peru, it got kind of rekindled in a way of like all. Right, Jeff, just. Poured his heart out to me sort of unfiltered, and it was appropriate that day for me to sort of receive it and ask a few little questions, but it. Like it was your it was your journey, your conversation. And I was like, oh, ****, I'm going to have to. I'm gonna have to have one of these with with Jeff now with with a, with a therapist, with a psychologist. And interestingly enough, I don't think we've actually ever had a. Have we ever had a one-on-one podcast conversation in all that like. You have had a podcast. I've had a podcast. We have these great conversations that aren't recorded. And so here's this first one, which with our new mutual friend Wes and The Nectar podcast he's producing your podcast. Now he's producing this one. We're here in his. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: You know studio and I don't know how long we've been going, but I guess now we can we can begin to maybe answer the question that you asked me via text about my. Yeah, I know for sure that the word was wavering atheism because it's been echoing in my mind for a couple weeks since you took. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, we'll explain yourself. Let's, let's go. What the? 
Zac Parsons: OK, OK. So what this, this, this is going to sound? Pretentious, but what do you know so far? Because I have posted some things publicly. I've got sort of a YouTube channel that I've kind of committed. I committed to a YouTube channel to sort of. Document this exploration of why church still matters to me a decade plus after like leaving. And I have been interested in rituals I have been interested in. You know the the Jordan Peterson phenomenon has, you know, grabbed me and I've I've been writing that, you know, the whole time in his relationship with Sam Harris, who's, you know, one of our famous atheists, like, and the friendship that they've like, created together and has sustained just fascinates me and. 
Zac Parsons: It's like, why do people like Sam and me still care about religion and church? And so I was like, I want to have conversations like this with people to help me understand why I still care and what am I sort of potentially blind to that could maybe be revealed. From. The type of conversation that I hope we are having right now and will continue to have and that I've been having with other people. So have you seen any of those conversations yet? 
Jeff Stucke: So the first thing kind of as we were kind of finishing up our walk and you were just kind of ruminating a little bit about. That journey and the. The journey that I went on you, you were just kind of pontificating a little bit like I want to facilitate that for people like I, there's something still in me, whether it's pastoral and I I don't know if I'm supposed to call myself a shaman like, you know what I'm saying. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: And it was like. And and it just you were so introspective as you were kind of just processing that that that, I don't know what that space is supposed to be, but I want to get in the space where I can facilitate that for people was the sense that I kind of. And then I've read a couple of things that you've posted. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Facebook. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. So I posted on Facebook and that those were have been some hard things as well because it's like, you know, any Tom, **** and Harry can start a YouTube channel and has and you know, why the hell should anybody watch it? But I mean, there's still power, you know, in our you know, age group, at least at Facebook, but people are still reading Facebook all the time. And on fat Tuesday. 
Speaker 
Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Mardi Gras, which our our tradition, she's I don't wanna speak for you. Did you ever practice lent like in any of like it just wasn't a part of our our faith tradition but you you know about it like you know people who practice it were in a very Catholic community. Right. So I have like just this sense of you give stuff up for Lent. And I happened upon a tweet from a guy named Peter Rollins, who apparently I learned this after the fact for about a decade now. Has this program called giving up atheism for Lent? And I was like, huh? So I've made this commitment with, you know, I've been sensing the thing that we talked about at the end of our walk. I made this commitment sort of pursue church on YouTube and, oh, it's fat Tuesday, and this guy is proposing you can give up your atheism for Lent. So I've got. You'd be proud of me. I've got a cigar and I've got a bourbon. I'm out. My, my back patio at my fire pit and I like, take a picture of it and send it to a bunch of my guy friends who've been a part of my men's retreat and say, guys, I'm giving up atheism for lent, like, who's coming with me. And I actually don't even remember if they responded. But that was like, that was one of those moments for me. It was like, OK, I needed to commit to it publicly or. At least. Socially, to have a little bit of accountability and and not even really knowing what that. 
Jeff Stucke: Looked like I was going to say, well, so then what were the implications of them? 
Zac Parsons: Giving it up. Yeah, like, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the next day is Valentine's Day and Jessica's gift to me was. 
Jeff Stucke: Very quiet, OK. 
Zac Parsons: So. Funny, a trip to go see Jordan Peterson. Not both of us. I mean, she went with she. We drove to Saint Louis together. But she only got 1 ticket, you know, for me, you know, to watch you. Know. This silly man that I, you know, listened to hours and hours of his videos and stuff all the time while she has what we like to call a hotel night. Where she can, you know, she's far enough away from the coffee shop store. If they burn down. She can't do anything about it, so she's able to sort of relax and recuperate and in really strong ways, just with a single night at a hotel. So that's the plan as we're driving up there, I'm playing for her a podcast of this brilliant tech philosopher, entrepreneur. He's the founder of Divx. Do you remember? Thanks. 
Jeff Stucke: No, I have no. 
Zac Parsons: Idea what? OK, so it was like, a it doesn't matter what it is. It was a technology thing in the 90s made. A bunch of money kind of got to retire like at 30, like in in his early 30s and then sort of devoted himself to kind of a higher calling of, like, how then should I live for like the next 20-30 years? And I sort of found him through the whole rebel wisdom rabbit hole that I fell down. After getting in with Jordan Peterson, so then rebel wisdom guys would interview this gentleman, Jordan Hall is his name and he's just he's brilliant. He's he's just one of the the smartest, most thoughtful. He's thinking like 10 layers deeper than I can even like perceive all the time. He announced that he was becoming a Christian. Like it it happened last year, he got baptized and then it sort of like came out when he was catching up with someone who has a podcast was like, wait, you're a Christian. Like, does the rest of our little like sense making world know this? He's like, I don't know. It's like, can we talk about it on a podcast? OK. And like, it rocked my world. I was like, wait, Jordan Hall is a Christian, the sense making general. This doesn't make sense. And so that led to sort of this these like successive podcast conversations of people who. Were as dumbfounded as me, but, but still like curious and and like all the relational like tissue that had been built was still there so they could have a good faith conversation about what had happened. And I wanted to. I wanted to listen to it while we were driving and we kind of have a rule. It's like, well, if I'm driving then I get to choose, you know, the music or the podcast or whatever. And so I've got one of these things on, and usually Jessica's like headphones in or taking a nap. Like can't stand. And it she is locked in. She she's like. Is this the thing? Like, you know, she's probably been praying for me for years. She's still Christian like. This is the thing. Maybe that Zach needs to like, be opened up to this and she says that she's listening to this conversation. Like you're gonna talk. To this guy. You're going to talk to Jordan? I was like, yeah, I I don't think so. He's he's he's kind of a big deal. He I don't know him. He's he's not going to want to talk to me. So then I went to see Jordan Peterson that night, and it was great. And it was fun. She had a great hotel night. The next day we're driving back and I respond to a tweet from Jordan and say something like, you know, I'd, I'd actually love to learn more about this new calling that that you have. And he responded and said I'll trade you for a bag of coffee. And so I made the trade and he set up a conversation on February 20th. So we have a a zoom conversation, not zoom Riverside. Whatever video based conversation and. It's. Amazing and deep, and he's so present like he is as locked in as you are right now but through a video screen with somebody who he's never met before. And so I I try and like close the gap on the like relational asymmetry between how much I know about him and have projected onto him from hours and hours. Of, you know, seeing and hearing him and I'm a stranger and telling him about my my ministry journey about my affair that I had and like how my sort of relationship with God and my first wife kind of like disintegrated in different ways. And I kind of emerged as an atheist kind of out of that. And we got deeper and deeper and deeper and at the very end. He asked me to pray. And I told him I'm like, I'm an atheist. Like I I don't. I don't believe this stuff anymore. But he felt something in me and and like, I was like trying to wrap the conversation. I'm like, hey, it's been great. Thank you so much. And he's like, can I make one request? Will you pray? And I was like. Ohh wait. I do pray, or at least non atheist. Pray Christians pray right. And so I had to fulfill that commitment that I had made, whatever a week before, like it was literally like the next Tuesday. So like within a week this, this conversation happened. This is post back Tuesday. Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. This is post you giving up atheism for Lent, so you're you're on the hook now. 
Zac Parsons: Correct. Yes, I just, I just remember it was actually so when my daughter's birthday was also fat Tuesday. So that'll make it even easier for me to sort of remember what that day before Ash Wednesday was. And so we hang up and. It wasn't like, hey, let's pray together and you know, go into that whole thing. It was like, it's just me by myself, just had this this. Kind not. I'm not gonna call it a miracle, but an unlikely hour. Long connection with somebody that I've sort of looked up to from afar where he was completely with me. And honestly, like he was different. Like he like, there's that sense of. What was it like Harry meant when Harry met Sally? Like, I'll have what she's having is. Like. I want what he has. 
Jeff Stucke: Was. From a from the because I'm while you're sitting here and I'm trying not to be. * ****. 
Zac Parsons: No, no, no. You should be if that's what like. 
Jeff Stucke: It's like I'm I'm thinking about Chris Rock or not. Chris Rock, Kid Rock Kid Rock professing his Christianity and it's like. 
Zac Parsons: OK. 
Jeff Stucke: What are we talking about? And I'm not. I'm not judging him. I don't. But it's just like when it's like the term. I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. 
Zac Parsons: Well, again, yeah. It's like, well, we talk about we started like there. There's these boxes of, OK, does Christian mean the same thing to you as it does to me? And and I don't identify as a Christian right now. So it wasn't like, ohh now I'm a Christian. Like all the way back up to that other mountain. 
Jeff Stucke: Did he did well? Jordan? Was that his name? Did he, Jordan? Did he define what he means to be a Christian? 
Zac Parsons: I mean in that same challenging way that Jordan Peterson has always said, it's like it would take me 40 hours to have like that. 
Jeff Stucke: It would have been that complex. OK. No, no, no, that's. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. So he's, he's continued to have. He basically opened himself up and said if somebody wants to have a good faith conversation with me about this, like he he like sits there and kind of discerns and says, OK, I will engage with this person and there's. I don't know. Probably been over a dozen now, including mine that are like out on YouTube of him having a different level of somebody asking that. Question because I think it's hard to even answer it because it's like if you're talking to yourself, well, what do I mean when I talk about God? When you ask me what I mean when I talk about God, that might be different than what Wes asked me or what Jessica asked me. And so I think that's why it is kind of powerful to to do it between two people. Because we can maybe figure out what we both mean by that. And I I would guess again, try not to Judge Chris Rock, I. Would guess Kid Rock? 
Jeff Stucke: Sorry, I've got the right yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Chris Rock, Kid Rock, whoever. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, no judgment. I'm just saying, it's like when, yeah, keep going. 
Zac Parsons: I and I don't know enough about it, but I would. I would make an assumption that we we mean different things by that we've just we've lived vastly different lives and that's that's my sort of gut sense on that. And I wouldn't call myself a Christian right now it was so I prayed. And in that prayer, it was at a different level and like in a different direction almost than my like, previous kind of attempts to pray within this like period of of atheism or or being in the desert or whatever. It was like a sincere prayer for somebody else. And like my prayers had been. God show kind of show yourself to me like you know I'm. I'm open. I I could be blind to you. Like, if if there's something you want to show me, please show me. You know, it's like. Silence. And this one was like. God, I don't know what I'm supposed to pray for, but I know who I'm supposed to pray for, and I don't even know who I'm praying to right now. But I made this commitment, and I'm going to. It wasn't even out loud. It was like just a. An offering of like sincere. Love. For this person, in a way to where I didn't know what was going to happen next, but it felt it felt like this is a this is a. This is kind of a pure thing here and I did not expect that. And then immediately after that I felt someone else pop into my head of like, this is somebody who needs prayer. Or maybe even more specifically, I need to pray for this person and I think Jordan does too. Jordan Hall, so I messaged him and said, hey here, here's a an A mutual friend. I think I I felt led to pray for him and he responded back. Like, yes, you're absolutely right. I'll be praying for him too. And so and one thing Jordan talked about was fasting. He's fasting on Fridays. And so I have kind of reintegrated prayer and fasting into my life. Let let me take us one other spot within this and see if it's. If it's helpful. When I deconverted, that was the term that made sense to me. Deconversion. Since then, I feel like a new term has kind of come about that I initially resisted and didn't like, but now I think fits much better, which is deconstruct. Do you have any thoughts on on the nuances between deconversion and deconstruction, or is that on your radar at all? 
Jeff Stucke: Well, just at first hearing, I would say that's much more on point. The deconstruction is, yeah, that. 
Zac Parsons: It's not just like this. Binary things like this crossword threshold, that which is the box people put you in ohh he deconverted he's an atheist. He's probably, you know, worshipping Satan while killing babies or something right now and it's like. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. No, I'm pulling. I'm pulling all of this apart. I'm laying them down. I'm looking at what pieces I have, and then I'm going to take those pieces. Maybe I got a few new pieces and. 
Zac Parsons: Yes. 
Jeff Stucke: The perpetual journey of reassembling it. 
Zac Parsons: It's a the the deconstruction leads to cause you get to a bottom or you get to a base or something where you're like, OK, I don't know how much. More. I can take off or pull apart. Maybe I need to sort of look around and recognize what I have and what I am putting back on or what I want to put back on and RECO. Instruct so it does sort of feel like in this Lenten season I've sort of put back on prayer and put back on fasting as sort of like elements of how I am being in the world in my relationships and it's sort of continued to have this weird. Elevated like I'll I'll use your directional sort of metaphor as before, it's like. I feel like I'm being pulled into something higher. And I've had the the these weird, you know, signs and wonders kind of experiences lately. And I'm like, this is nuts. Like, I might be crazy like I am. Am I deluding myself? Am I ************ myself or is actually something happening where I'm tapped into something that I can't see and I can't measure and I've thought back to like your experience and how? You know, if you were to describe and you and you have described it to people like, hey, this happened and they're like, what and and you you can't. You can't give them the experience for them with your words like your words will always fail unless they experience their version of something like that as well. So that's kind of where I feel like I'm at is that I'm. I'm really trying to earnestly. Be open to being wrong, to to ************ myself. 
Jeff Stucke: Or what would be the evidence of, like, ************ yourself? In what way? 
Zac Parsons: That because I grew up in a Christian culture like just broadly like in the United States and then specifically got sort of. Like really into God and Jesus in those formative like 13 year old years like I know like one of the things you always talk about was like, what was your favorite song and like 19 when you were, is it 13 eighth grade? OK. And like before I started recording, I was like, hey, did you ever, like Weezer, like Weezer? Like, was one of those bands for me? And in, like, 1990 three, 1994? 
Jeff Stucke: 8th grade, yeah, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Like in 8th grade, that was very formative. But also what was formative in that time was like just getting really into church. Like, just like that was my hobby. That was my. That was my thing. I was I was like, you know, one of those ******** church kids. And so with that and the formation that happened for me, my, my moral formation. Like I tend to still be compelled by. OK. Things that would sort of represent the the Christ Avatar, like in in films or or in life, like like talking about, talking about like Wes's father-in-law, like how he sacrifices himself, how he just sacrificed his wrist to keep getting the job done. Like I look at him like that is a king of a man. And it's that sort of like sacrificial approach of Jesus that I like, feel like I necessarily. Project meaning into whether I want to or not, so I don't know if that's like just a result of my personal formation that I'm always going to see things through like a Jesus lens, and therefore when something profound happens to me, I'm going to sort of reinterpret it through that lens and the best language. You can use the best. Like we're talking about Christianities, the best framing of it is going to be sort of back in that sort of church and Jesus's sort of focused way. 
Zac Parsons: But I've also had this journey, I'll call it in the desert or whatever, like in science, in psychology, in, like, trying to understand how people can believe things that are obviously not true. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. 
Zac Parsons: So if I'm believing something that's not true, I'm trying to be aware of the harms of the negative consequences that are resulting from me believing and then acting within that way. And then maybe on the flip side, if I do see positives coming from acting in this sort of. God focused way. What's up with that? Why? Why would that be the case? Could it be that I am communing with something that is in some sort of control or has some sort of power, or has some sort of foresight that is valuable for me to submit myself to? 
Jeff Stucke: It's interesting because so much of what you're describing. I resonate with so much just in terms of. 
Jeff Stucke: For me, my religious beliefs were forced upon me like there was no it's just that's what you do and right and then to go through the literal suffering. You talk about an unlikely crucifixion is coming out of Christianity. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. That's how you're gonna see the world. 
Jeff Stucke: Like cause they they ******* crucify you for that **** and then. And. The the evaluating and picking back up and it's it's like have you read Rick Rubin's book? 
Zac Parsons: I literally gifted it to Wes on his birthday. 
Jeff Stucke: Ohh, that's right. That's right. Yes. Yes, yes. 
Zac Parsons: I had an I got an autographed copy for him for it it it is. It is a sacred text to me. 
Jeff Stucke: OK, like and and like Christianity is so tribal. Like it's so ******* tribal. Why does there need to be so many denominations? And why are the denominations so hostile that against each other and like? This and people always say. 
Zac Parsons: But yeah, but. But I think people sense that right now, like like people who are in the church, who very much identify as Christians, they feel that too. There isn't like this sense of, like, man, we got this all figured out. Things are really good in the church right now. Like, you could talk about all the political things with, like, a sort of Christian nationalism. Like, people are freaked. Out about what the this, this election and this sort of political the political and Christian sort of bedfellow, Christian. Combination that's happening right now is really concerning. A lot of people because it's. It's it's not what others like. Probably you and me would have ever signed up for. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, I when I had the a pastor on my podcast. Brett. Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Just just I'm editing our conversation right now. Yeah, you guys are gonna have. Another conversation. And it was a great it. 
Jeff Stucke: Was great because you didn't hold back. Well, I did. I mean, I I did. I I I did not want. 
Zac Parsons: OK, OK. OK, fair enough. You didn't treat him with kid gloves, though. 
Jeff Stucke: Correct. But I also did not want to come across this. Aggressive because I really don't have an axe to grind it. It's so funny like I've got. I'm just going to flooded with thoughts right now, but one of the things that really helped me with Ruben's book was conceptualizing this life force like there is a life force that you can tap into and. Yeah, and it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. West. I called the spirit. So does Rick. 
Jeff Stucke: What it's like when multiple people get the same idea at the same time at in different parts of the world. It's like are you tapped into this life force that is, that is greater than you and it's like. Yes, and I don't. I don't care what you call it. I don't care. Why are we fighting over? 
Zac Parsons: Right. 
Jeff Stucke: And you know, one of the things that Brett said, I think, and most pastors say, is you can't. You can't judge Christians. You can't judge Christianity by the church. Why the **** not? 
Zac Parsons: And you. 
Jeff Stucke: I mean if the if the church is the production center, like if that were a product under normal circumstances, it would go out of business. 
Zac Parsons: Sure. Yeah. It what? What comes to mind for me? It's like there the the two big inflection points that come to mind are like Martin Luther. Right. So it's like there is this point where for for many people. The church became corrupt and he hits his 95 theses, you know, on the Wittenberg door. And like births Protestantism and like there's this complete reformation. So talk about like there a deconstruction needed to happen and a reformation needed to take place and changes the course of history like. His like that move altered history. Go back another like 1500 years or whatever to like. Jesus within like Judaism, like he's got all of these holy legal, you know, scholars, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, like, yeah, we we kind of got this guy thing figured out. We got the law figured out. We've. Been studying our whole lives and this this Jesus character is. He's going rogue. Let's trap him. Like let's let's ask you know what's what's the greatest commandment? Or let's make sure he's failing on one to try and achieve the other. And he like summarized like this big swoop of of low. Love your neighbor yourself, love, love the Lord your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor. 
Jeff Stucke: As yourself. But how did it? How did we get to a point where Christianity is so bastardized that we have? 
Zac Parsons: The Mega Church, I think it's. I think it's a it seems to be a natural course of human behavior like there's. 
Jeff Stucke: But how do we get that and think, well, this is this is right? 
Zac Parsons: They're static. 
Jeff Stucke: This is like what? 
Zac Parsons: I think that's the I think that is the difference. So if I can challenge you for a little bit find. 
Zac Parsons: Like you know, you know Jordan Peterson and and Sam Harris. When they when they finally like, realized that they weren't talking about the same thing and they were like alright, we need to steal man each other within this conversation. So like I would challenge you and like and maybe it's with Brett like to steal man his understanding of of the church. In that way to where like, make sure that he's defending what you think he's defend. Because what I sense in a lot of church people is, there is a lot of **** that is impure, that needs to be sort of burned away from the current church right now and they're not willing to defend that they, they'll say, probably say like we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they would very much acknowledge that they're the the baby. Get in the bathtub. 
Jeff Stucke: Well, and I think I think a lot about not only, but I think one of the most significant things is. The centralization of the church, I think. I think community like the hub of community is the local church, not the church that people are driving 35 minutes whatever to get there and. 
Zac Parsons: The only time they see those people is in a service where they're actually all looking up at the at the the person singing. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, it's *******. Just static. There's no, there's no inner, there's no as man. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another like that. She's in the Bible and pretty ******* important. 
Zac Parsons: Like, did you get that? The Bible is important. Jeff Stucke: y. 
Jeff Stucke: Dude, you talk about can't see the forest for the trees. I love the gospels. I love reading the Gospels and. And part of going to Peru and not forsaking, that was a lot about what Jesus talked about in terms of. The path that he was on was also his invitation to the disciples. Like you know, this ship's real like, this isn't like vocational ministry. Like, we're ******* walking around like we're doing **** like your feet are going to get nasty and dirty, so I'll wash them for you one day. Like. It's there. Whether and again I I don't read the Bible the way that I used to read the Bible. I read it not quite as union as Jordan Peterson, but it's like when you look at the spirit of the scriptures. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Rather than, this has to be the authoritative, inspired word of God, and it is infallible, and we have to die on that hill. It's like no, when you just read. 
Zac Parsons: The. We'll die on that hill. The church will die. 
Jeff Stucke: On the hill, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: On that. Agreed. 
Jeff Stucke: And it's like I don't. I I was. Hung out with a buddy this weekend and. He he knows my journey and he professes to be a Christian, fine. And so he starts to talk about his faith. And he says, I know you're not supportive of that. 
Zac Parsons: This is this is a recently you guys haven't had this conversation before. No, no. I mean like, have you guys gotten to this level before? OK, OK, OK. 
Jeff Stucke: ******* this weekend. No, we've. Yes. And it's like it's this is one of the things that's interesting to me about the. Elitist view, I guess, and I know they say, you know, Jesus is the way the only way that and again it's like that's the hill you're going to die on when there's how many religions around the world and geography says more about what your religious orientation is and. All of these sorts of. 
Zac Parsons: Poor souls burning in hell right now. They're. 
Jeff Stucke: Things. And it's like if someone I have several friends that have a beautiful faith. It's a beautiful personal faith. They respect that. That's not my path. 
Zac Parsons: Just, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: But it's like within Christianity, not, and not just Christianity. But that's been my experience. But it's like within. Christianity, like we're not supposed to associate with each other because I'm not. I'm not in the brotherhood. 
Zac Parsons: You're you're a heathen. You're you're unclean. You are an apostate, you are etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 
Jeff Stucke: All of the above, right. And they're not like they're they're fairly malevolent titles, I. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Mean let's start little well. But then Jeff is the Antichrist. You probably have also gotten this label from some Christians. Let me know how this lands of. Seeker. And people still call you a. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. **** yes. And it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Seeker. You're going down to Peru. 
Jeff Stucke: I'm not. I'm not. I know I am not seeking that and. If, if our society has a hope, it's the local church, it is the rebirth. It is the categorical rejection of the. Heresy of the modern Mega church and it is a return to the local church and the practicing of Acts 2 of meeting together the breaking of bread and sharing with one another where there is need our sister. You can yes like yes. 
Zac Parsons: Can I can I say Amen? Is that appropriate? 
Jeff Stucke: Amen. We need that. But the tribalism of you're not like us and we're right and you're not, right. The fact that the religious landscape in the United States. Where we are as a society would still. Be would rather argue over doctrinal nuance than heal society. That's where I'm like what? 
Zac Parsons: Have you gotten turned on to John Verbeke? Yet no what? 
Jeff Stucke: That felt judgy. 
Zac Parsons: It's it's not judgy. It's more like shock. It's more like you need to clear your calendar. So he has this fifty part YouTube series called do we do do, do the little thing balloons, John. 
Jeff Stucke: At the. 
Zac Parsons: He has a 50 part YouTube series called Awakening from the meaning crisis. He's colleagues with Jordan Peterson. Yeah, you actually probably if you're, if you're talking to Jordan Peterson podcasts, he's had a couple of he has one specifically called a conversation. So intense it might as well be psychedelic. 
Jeff Stucke: Just don't know him by name, but yeah, I'm. 
Zac Parsons: Has. Has that been on your radar? No. OK Jeff Stucke: y, who listens to Jordan Peterson, is into psychedelics. Find that one, and see if that's a good jumping off point. So he has these four peas of knowing that, kind of like a a shorthand, a little heuristic to talk about different ways of knowledge. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, yes. OK. 
Zac Parsons: So there's the propositional these are the sort of beliefs that you have to sort of ascend to and and it's it's very linguistic and we are. Living in a tyranny of the propositional right now, and the church that you and I just described and rejecting lives in that place like you need to have something like the inerrant word of God that has these things, that you ascend to. These are the propositions that you must agree with in order to have fellowship together, and then you have the the perspectival. Then you have the. I'm going to miss one of them, but the one that I want to go to is the participatory and I feel like there's this huge tension that I am continually being sort of pushed back into what we actually need is to participate in something together and that propositional that tends to sort of reign. And create tribes gets in the way of us sitting down and breaking bread together, having a a conversation together, taking a walk together, you know, helping to, you know, paint. Your house or something together like whatever sort of needs to be done in that local community that is participating and doing life together. That is the Creative Act, a way of being, not a way of thinking. 
Jeff Stucke: And. And that is the only mechanism of communion for men. 
Jeff Stucke: When we gather around A cause, when we're, I mean for men to just sit and like, look at each other and like what we're. 
Zac Parsons: Doing. 
Jeff Stucke: I know, man, but you need to wrestle, like, but we're also recording a podcast. But for most men, for most. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Then it's the the validation of. It's like when we for men when when we. When our partner comes to us with the problem, what's the first thing that? We do. 
Zac Parsons: We wanna talk. 
Jeff Stucke: About we wanna ******* solve that thing, right. And then she's like, why do you want to solve my problem? Because I love you. Like I'm really not because I'm mansplaining because it seems like that's what. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this is me trying to show up in love right now. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. And and again, you know, men have to learn the skill that I'm just going to be present and I'm gonna listen. I'm going to be available in the way that you want. Two, but in the the the Petri dish for that is painting a wall, and suddenly one of us starts talking about how unhappy our marriage is, and we don't, whatever that is. And it's like we men don't have these places. And I do believe in as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I I do believe in that. I believe there. There is space that men need to have. Have where we kind of in early childhood development, we would call it rough and tumble play, right? It's just a struggle, yeah. 
Zac Parsons: Sure. RAF Kelly. You know RAF Kelly. 
Jeff Stucke: Dude, you're just like. 
Zac Parsons: OK, rough and tumble play Raff Kelly. We'll put a link in it here, too. You're gonna freaking love this guy. 
Jeff Stucke: OK, so Jonathan Hyatt would be the one that OK, yeah, those kinds of things and it's. 
Zac Parsons: Love, Jonathan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. 
Jeff Stucke: Like for the most part, men are void of those environments anymore. And what I don't I. I don't wanna go listen to some dude talk for a *******. 
Zac Parsons: Hour. Ohh. Like he's talking about going, going to church right now. The way to go, yeah. 
Speaker 
Sure. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes. And it's like it's like, OK, I want, I would love to participate. One, if that I I presume if the church would allow me and I'd have to wear a scarlet. Letter so so. They so they they know that the the unclean one is amongst us. I don't want to sing those songs. Two. Maybe I could do three. That's plenty. 
Zac Parsons: I'm this guy. The Antichrist. You've been warned about. Unclean. Unclean. Yeah. You'll stand politely as as everyone else around you is having an experience. 
Jeff Stucke: It's like I don't need. I don't need like the uplifting songs. 
Zac Parsons: You're thinking about where you going for lunch. 
Jeff Stucke: And then mood swing now into sobriety. Ohh, now you got me in my feels perfect. Time to pass the offering plate. So wow, this isn't formulaic at all. 
Zac Parsons: That's right. So this is great because Brett is listening to this right now, maybe even watching it and we had a conversation a couple weeks ago where he talked about a really a prophetic vision that he had right before launching one life church. And he he alluded to several elements of it that he wasn't able to get into at that time. But that the. The part that was alive at that conversation was actually seeing a picture of people sort of sitting across from each other drinking coffee at tables, participating in God's not sitting and having what we would just describe as like a church experience that we reject, you know, those things. Ended up coming about like that tends to be the direction that a church goes into and like he's feeling that calling right now of this more participatory thing, whether it's church or church adjacent, needs to be born and wants to be born. And I said, I think I could come in and sort of protect that space from the church that the church is going to have a it's going to want to programmatically that and make, like, you know, here's 3 easy steps to say the sinners prayer. If if you're in one of these, you know, coffee conversations to where Jesus comes alive. And and we'll, we'll have a baptismal, you know, around the corner. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, none of that. We're gonna protect this sacred space from the church, and he's on board with all of it. He's like. That is what we need. So like we're literally like planning all of that, like right now in Evansville to create that for our. 
Jeff Stucke: Community and whenever it expands into a psychedelic realm, I'll I'll take that part. 
Zac Parsons: That's that. That's what you're called to. It might be. Honestly, that's. I mean, that's like what you're talking about, like. What's the next good step or, you know, trusting that certainty that that called you? There, there's this idea of like if you actually do believe in God. You have to believe that all aspects of life and and this gets really hard when you start thinking about evil, right? And you think about the, you know, torture of children or whatever your mind just went. When you think of like evil like. God has to be a part of that too. And so a lot of the things I know we've talked about this before. 
Jeff Stucke: Can you unpack? That a little bit more when you say God has to be a part of that too. 
Zac Parsons: Like, if you're gonna say you believe in God like like, there's always, you know, the constant sort of atheist Christian debate of, like, well, what do you do about the problem of evil? Like, how could a good God answer, you know, Susie's prayer of help me do good on this test when you know someone is like, like, they're literally, like, she'll. Yes, right now. 
Jeff Stucke: When a four year old Shane was molested. Or. 
Zac Parsons: At this moment, dozens, hundreds of thousands. 
Jeff Stucke: What number of children are starving in the Gaza Strip right now? They have no access to. 
Zac Parsons: Being being blown apart, being like being apart by a gun or or a by a knife like like that's happening. 
Jeff Stucke: And then with Christians and then? 
Zac Parsons: We are at this moment on this planet right now. 
Jeff Stucke: And would and would Christians say that children are starving to death in the Gaza Strip right now because they believe in the long God? 
Zac Parsons: A lot of them would absolutely they would. 
Jeff Stucke: And and not be disgusted by the. That is so. Is that a fair thing to say? That that's disgusting like, no. Well, they deserve it. They do deserve to die because they were born in the wrong place and because of that, they believe they have. So that so they deserve it. And it's like. 
Zac Parsons: This. It yes, sorry, it is fair. Yes, yes. And it needs to continue for eternity. 
Jeff Stucke: What are you people talking about? 
Zac Parsons: Well, this is what happened to Rob Bell. So, like around the time that we met, like Rob Bell goes on this whole journey, which you know, he has someone say to him like ohh yeah. Gandhi was a great sort of like spiritual teacher, but he's burning in hell right now. And Rob's like what Gandhi Gandhi is burning. In hell, like we're sure about that and that just sort of. That was one of the big sort of dominoes, the deconstruction for him which to my understanding has sort of led him completely outside of the church. You talk about somebody who was crucified for their deconstruction. That was a guy that that went through some ****. And has, I guess come out on the other side, completely separated from from the churches. We knew it. 
Jeff Stucke: Which is funny because he velvet Elvis was certainly pivotal in some of just like can we start asking some of these questions? And I remember reading. The book looking up like oh **** is someone. He's gonna ask it. Ohh, and it was that Donald Miller's blue like jazz was. What the hell? Now Donald's a business coach. But whatever. That's good for him. You know, some of those books that were starting to say some of this **** doesn't make any sense, which is like. 
Zac Parsons: Going to get him. 
Speaker 
Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: It doesn't make any sense and what what is going on. Again, I'll go back to almost the intentionality of making it so tribal and. 
Zac Parsons: Because it's certainty and and like it's it's interesting that for me the word certainty actually has a negative. Galen. To it and for you how you talked about what I wanted to project onto your experience and prove as a calling. You use the word certainty of like I am certain of this. And therefore I will move forward and and you know as a psychologist, how much certainty and uncertainty plays into people's psychological distress. Comfort and so. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, which is and now in my life it's almost paradoxical. That it's like the more uncertain it feels, the more certain I am I'm supposed to do that. 
Zac Parsons: OK. OK. That's a good. That's a good, because that's sort of how I have it as well. It's almost like I have two boxes which even the. 
Jeff Stucke: Ohh that that's the really hard one. **** yeah, that's the one I'm supposed to do. 
Zac Parsons: That's what I don't understand that that's it's. And so I call this one the the mystery box or the mysterious box. And if I really don't understand it and I'm not certain about it, that is where I feel sort of drawn to. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: And so my early faith in theology in the propositional knowing that I had had this really big box of these things that I am sure about. And slowly but surely, as I go through life and have experiences and meet other people who've had different experiences. This starts to get kind of ticked off and broken away to where now my certainty box is a dot and my mystery box is enormous. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. And that's one of the things that was so resonant about Mcconaughey's book and just how he he almost felt an oblate well, I think he did. I mean, he made. He did not represent it this way, but it was like he just felt this urgency and obligation to like storm off into the unknown. And and I think what resonated because with my religious experience, right, it is keep your world as small and predictable. Yeah, and known. 
Zac Parsons: But that's what we we do. That's just psychologically what we know people want, but that may not necessarily be what's good for them or even like what react. 
Jeff Stucke: It's necessarily what is not good for them. Just like say, well, it's just like sedentary lifestyles, whether it's. 
Speaker 
So. 
Jeff Stucke: Physical, sedentary or cognitive sedentary because who thinks critically anymore, and it's hard for me because I can get on ******* YouTube and listen to brilliant **** and just be stuck and it's like, OK, I have to put this down and actually go do some thinking for myself right now. And it's like. A typical church service. What does a man do? Walks in uncomfortably. OK, now we have to sit. Here OK. 
Zac Parsons: So interestingly though, that was also what sort of broke because I feel like I was in the exact same spot and then hearing Jordan Hall talk about how he went into a church service and he experienced beauty. Not the architecture, not the the ornate. You know the the, the, the pews or the lectern or something like that. But it was like it was the spirit in the children, in the youth in particular, of something different than what he's seen in the other contexts of kids who are depressed. Kids were confused. Kids who are. 
Jeff Stucke: It's in which to me from a cycle like, yes, like community. That's what community does. 
Zac Parsons: You, which you deal with all the time. Yeah, and. And he knew that like he he's like. This is the gold standard of what a healthy community is. Maybe I need to humble myself and be open that they might have something here that I haven't examined their way or understood, because this is the gold standard of what a healthy community is, and he called it beauty. And so if that involves singing those songs and listening to that guy stand up, he's like, I have to be open to all of it. So he was and it's. So I think their church has kind of like. The. The Sunday service and then sort of the Wednesday Home group. And then there's also like a like a group home or something like that, that that does sort of ministry. On the daily as well. And they've got like a a cafe and a coffee shop whole sort of thing that he's. Kind of volunteered himself into to sort of roll up his hands and participate in this church community more than just, you know, get up there and and listen to or stay down there. Actually, probably more accurately, and listen to what's happening in the in the Sunday service. So some something's happening with him. I I I really want you to. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: To. Explore what he's gone through. I'll send you a link of him describing. I'll send you the same thing that I. That Jessica came alive with this conversation with this guy named Jim Rut, who's an atheist, but they have, like a good 10 plus year relationship that allowed Jordan's conversion to not break the relationship. But he Jim hammers him. Jim gets up on the website of this church and is like. OK, the Bible is the inspired in there. Word of God. You tell me you really believe this ********* and like and Jordan, just like takes it and responds. And and. It's it's sort of what I kind of expected. Maybe we would get into, but I don't think we did. I think I feel like we're like just sort of. Puzzling through this mystery together because I don't have a lot of certainty about certain aspects of what I've experienced and how it relates to what we would call church and Christianity. The the closest the best language, the best description of what I'm feeling right now is that I feel like I do feel like I turned around. There is movement, there is motion, and to the extent that the description of the early church was followers of the way, that's what I feel like I'm on right now again. And I I take that next step. And something like God meets me there. And the other profound experience that I had was with Rob Henson walking down Bellmead and the pastor, the priest. I don't know what you call him from the Greek Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church, pulls up as we're walking right by his church and calls to us like. Jesus calling you know Andrew and and Peter and it's like I think I said the word God like right as he opened the door and he's like. That's a conversation I can believe in. I mean, we're, we're 30 feet away, 40 feet away. We're, we're not, like going to run into him. He's inserting himself into this and then immediately says, guys, you guys wanna come inside and and see the space. Sure. We follow as we go inside and he's like, yeah, I'm late for the service, but it's we're about to get started. So stay as long as you want as long as you feel led to. So he have you ever been to a? Greek Orthodox Church. Yes, OK. OK. So I hadn't. And I was like, whoa. And he's like kissing a picture of Jesus. And there's like pictures everywhere. And there's a stage and and there's, like, a a threshold. Like, he walks through like a hidden door. And it looks like a a miniature version of like Hogwarts. Or something. There's like a a tower and he gets this cauldron of smoke and he's waving it around the room and there's these two guys in the corner who are. Like alternating like reciting the Bible like in kind of a rhythmic musical sort of way. It's it's not rhyming, it's it's a little weird, you know, praise to you. Oh, God. Da da da da da da da da da da, da, da. And then they alternate. Then the priest says something. And I'm just sitting there and I look at Rob and I'm just like. We're supposed to be here, or I'm supposed to be here. That was. That was the look he had to get back to work and I turned around. He didn't say. Like there's no. There's no words. Just look at him. It's like. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. 
Zac Parsons: This is this is what we're. Supposed to do right now what I'm supposed to do right now. And I look up at the stained glass and there's there's Jesus, which you know, he's everywhere. He you look any direction you go find Jesus. But this is like the pinnacle depiction of Jesus and he's he's got his right hand up like ready to like bless somebody like a king. You know, one of those kinds of things. And I like lock eyes with this. Stained glass. Jesus and I, I feel and I hear a sort of like anybody who you know. Puts his hand on the plow and doesn't and looks back is not worthy to be called my disciple. Whatever that verse is of like, don't look away. And so I just stay on him. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: And I kind of have that, like, remember in Ghostbusters two when they look at Vigo and and Vigo like takes over and like possesses them like this big painting of this, this guy, it was like that was like OK Jesus is like starting to come alive in this stained glass. There's. 
Jeff Stucke: OK. 
Zac Parsons: Sort of a a motion. A movement. Like when I've been on a site. At the end of my DMT experience I had something similar like that to where like the walls are kind of moving and there was like a snake that I could sort of sense there wasn't a snake in this side, but it was Jesus eyes. And I'm just like looking at him and he's looking at me, and then it's like. Who the hell do I think I am to, like, meet the gaze of this king? And stare back. Like I need to kneel in front of this king. And I hear the door open and closed, like Rob leaving. I'm the only person in here besides the priest and these two men like reading the Bible. So I kneel like on one knee, you know, like put my head down. It's like, all right, I'm bowing to the king. And I'm like. This isn't low enough like. I need to get lower and I remembered an experience I had in the Utah desert watching a sunrise after six days on the grid and like kind of worshipping the sun. No words. Silence like my body responded in a way of like, kneeling, putting my hands up and like. Yes. To this similar but instead of hands up, yes to this feed me son. It was like bow down to this king. And so I got full prostate and I'm just like. I'm still in my head. I'm not like having a. 
Jeff Stucke: It's not a Mystic here. 
Zac Parsons: Psycho. Yeah, like experience. You know where it's like. I'm not in like it. It was nowhere near as intense as your experiences. Like I can say no to this. I definitely felt that. But I said yes and I stayed down and I was like, this is right, this is this is what I should be doing. But I'm thinking it through like, well, what are what am I doing like we were. I was just on a walk and now I'm bowing down in front of strangers in a building I've never been to, to a God that I supposedly denounced a decade ago. After a few minutes, one of the guys said the word upright. And I was like, oh, OK. That was my cue to sort of stand up, service continued. I think. And I was. Like. Time to go. So I'm I'm walking out and right before I walk out because I just saw the priest do this. I turn around, look back at stained glass. Jesus and. Do one of these things. You know when in Rome and. Walked out the door. Turned around, took a picture of the door because it's 2024. You know, you got to get it for the gram and. Kind of floated back to my car. Like like, what was that? And so this is where I'm like, OK, I'm crazy. Like I or or if I'm not crazy, then this is sort of like a natural. This is how somebody who was formed by Christ and Christianity would respond if they were open to and seeking. Signs and wonders or something like that. Like if if this is what I want to see. This is what I'm going to see this this will be the the purest version of me, identifying with something worthy to be worshipped would be Jesus. And I don't know what to do. 
Jeff Stucke: With that, well, the two parts that are distinctive to me are one, it was internally motivated and two, it was participatory like you and and there were there was also. Maybe not rejection, but at least a lack of inhibition by social norms, and it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah, ohh, Jessica said. She's like, wait, this guy, this stranger like invited you into, like a room and you're like, yes. Like, I wouldn't have done that. He interrupted your your walk. Like. One just keep walk. 
Jeff Stucke: And it's it's interesting because I'm still challenged by. Rick Rubin's book, because it's it's either. Exceedingly profound. Or gibberish. I go back. And forth like. 
Zac Parsons: Yes. 
Jeff Stucke: Is this the most amazing thing I've ever read? Or is this literally nothing like I'm not? I'm not sure which. 
Zac Parsons: It's somehow both. It's I I I don't know either. I don't it's like but. But I'll tell you what. There have been so many times to where. Again, it's like if if you think that there's resonance, if there's signaling that noise and you're not sure you share it with another and it's like there's something here and and more often than not with that book, it's like, yes. 
Jeff Stucke: And that's what he says. Like the people that have the courage to hear it and respond to it. And it's like, OK, that's like. Creative, artistic. That's like philosophical. That is definitely, you know, religion spirit. It's like holy **** and it's like. 
Speaker 
Hmm. 
Jeff Stucke: There, there was no groupthink in what I did. When I went to Peru, it was like I have to trust this within myself, and that's what I would say. The similarity between those two experiences are is that you trusted that within yourself and it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Well, and even like the fact that it was with rob, like Rob is. If there was anybody who would sort of like, get it and be like, yes, I understand this, I'm electric. He was actually the one that took me to my very first. And so far only Ash Wednesday experience with with Kevin Fleming at First Presbyterian Church, maybe like three years ago. And so like. 
Jeff Stucke: So in terms of that kind of Mystic ritual like these? 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, he's all in on that. That kind of like, that's that's so he has not the the deconverted, you know he's he's actually still practicing as a minister but but. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. 
Zac Parsons: He is. He's wrestled with a lot of the same things that we have and and he still holds on to it. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like there's such a lack of humility in the North American Church. It's one just the the personality cult that is the modern mega church. I mean, it's just. Yes, I mean, it's like you're a ******* rock star. You're not a, like, this is. 
Zac Parsons: And then make it work. Faster. 
Jeff Stucke: Just come on, man. And and. 
Zac Parsons: Which, let's be honest, did you feel that that was a calling or a path potentially for you at at at a point in your in your past or even like you experienced it? 
Speaker 
I. 
Jeff Stucke: I felt like I'm a ******* idiot, like I still feel like an idiot. I mean, I spend most of my days after a client thinking **** do I have any idea what I'm talking like? Like it just. It's like the. 
Zac Parsons: But you then you have to look. You have to look at the fruits, right, like by their fruits you will know them. Like if people are being healed, then you can be like, OK. 
Speaker 
The different. 
Jeff Stucke: I trust that like it's it's it's like I trust the external affirmation and validation way more than I trust internally, because internally it's like no one should be listening to me. This is like the the feeling that I get. Of you have to be so ******* careful about the words that come out of your mouth. You have to be so careful that. 
Speaker 
Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: It's it and I the the pastors that I have experienced with this would be the certainty that you were referring to that is so off putting. It's like, no, I know I'm right. 
Zac Parsons: It's like well, because it's, it's it it, it's as if they were to say otherwise it would be a, an affront to God. Like, if if you actually believe, then, then you have to believe all the way and act as if it's true. And therefore you need to act as if it's certain. And there's such a dark side to that because. 
Jeff Stucke: Damn. 
Speaker 
But which is the Dunning? 
Zac Parsons: I I I. 
Jeff Stucke: Kruger effect. You know, it's like the more the more certain you are, the less you understand, and the more dangerous you. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Are and and I think that idea of a pastor who has to speak the truth on behalf of entire an entire tribe or community is dangerous. And I personally tend to like people who talk like I just did, which is why I talked this way of like, here's how I see it, for what that's worth, not. Here's how it is fact. You better submit to that or just by virtue of the. Forcefulness of the way that I'm saying it. You're going to submit to it because I can sort of dominate you in in a certain way that pastors tend to dominate people intellectually and spiritually. 
Jeff Stucke: Let's just. Right. I mean it's, I mean if we're calling what it is, it's, yeah, it's narcissism like it's just and they're they're blinded by their sense of self importance and and it's dangerous because you know absolute absolute power corrupts absolutely. And it's just that whole model of some dude walking out there and just. 
Zac Parsons: Thus sayeth the pastor. 
Speaker 
Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Asserting these sorts of things with so little humility, and it's like. I'm a fairly intelligent, sophisticated thinker like it's like. Like slow your roll, dude. Like yeah or or do you do? You ever like? Who do you go up to and ask? Was that ******? Like did I what? 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. Who do you submit to? Well, and that's that is the part of my experience that was like, OK, as I've been on this sort of like. So so I mean my big breaking points just sort of came from like trying to think through my prayers and like I I was what I thought was sort of praying through my affair, like praying through, like, God, if this is your will, you know, give me a sign and then I'd see something say, Oh well, there's my sign. I'm going to keep going down for this affair. And so when the affair had run its course and I'd reconciled with my first wife, and I'm, like, sort of putting these pieces back together, it's like. Where was God when I was praying and being led there? Maybe there's nobody on the other side of that phone call and sort of like just trying that on. Like maybe there is no God and it just stuck. It was just like oh. Yeah, you've always been praying to nobody. Well, that's why this didn't happen. And this happened like like. All the is like. Oh well, that's why there's evil in the world. Because there is no God to say like, wow, the problem. Of evil just got solved, huh? And then it's like ohh so we need to step up and do some things. If there is no God, it's like what are we waiting for? 
Jeff Stucke: That is, that is a. That's always been an issue for me is. God's ways are not our ways. As you know the the loopholes that they have for evil being present in the world, and it's like one of my frustrations has always been when I when religious people try to. Attack me, which leave me the **** alone, man. But it's like. 
Zac Parsons: Ohh, you'd be a good get man. I mean, imagine that notch on the belt. I baptized Jeff Stucke: y. We baptized. Yeah, the scalp. Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: But I would, yeah. That's a solid. Like a big fish like look at here. But it's like I. Always present the child molester dilemma next door is a room with a man and. A little girl. And he's going to molest her. You now having the knowledge can do whatever you want. You can. You can do whatever you want. You can leave. You can watch. You can help whatever it is you want to do. You can do it. What do you suppose you would do? 
Zac Parsons: Stop them at all costs. 
Jeff Stucke: **** yes. Yes, that's what keeps you from being a sociopath. 
Zac Parsons: And that that makes you more moral than God. If the the way that we sort of understand how how God, a good God, a good person, a good. Would response to that sort of. If you have the agency to intervene and don't, that is evil. 
Jeff Stucke: But I think. To state that. But what I think you have to say. Is in that instance, it is objectively true that that makes me more moral than God, and that then does present a problem. And it's like, that's where we got to start having some ******* discussions. 
Zac Parsons: Which is yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Is God there? Is he watching? Is he enjoying it? Like, but it's like, no, we can't. 
Zac Parsons: You you do have to ask that question because it's like there there is this idea of like God creates created the universe so that he could have something to enjoy and that it would be good. That that includes the evil that you just described. It's not like he created us and we're just like, you know, going along, you know, playing Patty cake with each other. And, you know, building cool technology. And it's all Kumbaya. It's like we do terrible, terrible, terrible things to each other with. Oftentimes no perceivable consequence or and and. That's. I mean I think that's where all these things have sort of been created like we have to have a hell, we have to have some sort of justice that is served from all of this evil. 
Jeff Stucke: And it just seems like Sam Harris said. I think with Sam Harris, it might have been Christopher Hutchinson, one of the other, that there will always be. Bad men. But religion is the only thing that can get good men to do bad things. 
Jeff Stucke: And it's like when you think about that and you really, you know, when you don't wince. I mean, as a country, we are a war mongering country. I mean and feel completely justified in our annihilations of other humans. And oftentimes I think within the ethos of our country is that there's some sense that we're the New Israel. And that God has blessed us because we have been a blessing to Israel. And it's like, yes. And now we we deserve whatever tools there are to be like. It's like ******* what? 
Zac Parsons: Ohh well, I mean I think that is actually how the Old Testament is written and understood. And so it's like to me to my mind and this will be blasphemous to. 
Jeff Stucke: It's precisely yes. 
Zac Parsons: People listening to this are Christians and and people like especially like really strong Bible Christians. It's. That was the authors of those books in the Old Testament, projecting things onto a what should have been an unknowable God, the the, the pillar of cloud, you know, leading them, you know, through the desert or the voice, talking to Moses and the burning Bush. Like all those things. Saying no no, no. God spoke clearly to me that we need to destroy the Amalekites, and we need to like, exactly, so that I I mean, I just, I just don't have that high view of the Bible still. So like, when when you ask me, like, where am I right now? I'm in. I'm in this world of where I have to take sort of the 1st. 
Jeff Stucke: Kill them all. 
Zac Parsons: Half of my life, the 1st mountain, if you will of like getting. To. Christianity and Vocational Ministry and just like really, really, really believing all of that. And then this sort of 2nd mountain or this desert experience of like I I. I might just be by myself. I might be praying to nothing, and I might be deluding myself, and it's on me sort of make meaning for myself, and if I can find some fellow travelers that we align with each other, we can have a good time before we kind of get snuffed out and shed this mortal coil. Great that that seems like a good thing to be pointed to. And now sort of pointed back to some sort of integration in the middle and maybe there was something transcendent in those because I had some really real experiences in the church as a Christian that I I still couldn't make sense of as an atheist. And I still don't know how to make sense of the the one that I had last week with the. Greek Orthodox Church. And. That's the journey that I want to be on. Those are the discussions that I want to have. I love the fact that we're having this in person in our meat suits. We're in the same same communities for now. I know you're sort of splitting your time between here and Chicago and Denver as. 
Jeff Stucke: Well, is that right? Yeah. Long term will probably be there more. 
Zac Parsons: But it's like this is the Kingdom of heaven that it seems it was always being described and was compelling to us as like. 
Jeff Stucke: In the Lord's Prayer, thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is. 
Zac Parsons: In heaven? Yes. So it's like I'm still living like like. I'm still living the same life. I've got the same job. I've got the same wife, I've got the same kids. And man, the stuff, the stuff with the kids. I mean, I got, I got rejected by my family, like my my atheism. Resulted in in my wife filing for divorce. Like I, I filed for divorce the first time I was like, uh, we're we're bad for each other, blah, blah blah reconciled. Except then I become an atheist and she's like. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not getting reconciled to this guy, so she divorces me and the justification was unequally yoked. He's an atheist. And you know what? What things are like with with parents and and and custody and the the whole, like parental alienation and it's like. And my kids. Go to church and are drawn to to, to God and and like they're on their own sort of spiritual journeys and. Well, what's dad? Well, Dad's an atheist. And all the baggage of being in that box. And so within the past two weeks, I've got to have separate individual conversations with all my kids, being very careful to explain to them like, I'm not saying I'm a Christian. But I have turned away from moving towards atheism or or or a secular humanism towards something like God. I'm on some sort of way, and I know you've been praying for this. I know that. 
Jeff Stucke: Turn. 
Zac Parsons: This is something that we need to have this conversation and it has been good. Like my daughter said. OK, well then we need to pray before we eat this meal right now. And she and then she, like she says well, and when I pray I we hold. Hands. And so I get to share a meal with my my daughter in Chili's, which is actually like the Now this holy place for me where we hold hands and and pray together. Just just. To. Bless the food. 
Jeff Stucke: And I think that's what the rituals are designed to do. And I think at some point. The church was. Was a means to an end. Now it's the end in and of itself. You just go to church, you accept Jesus, you get baptized, and then you just ******* wait to go to heaven. And it's like, yeah, it's like, no, no, the church is not. The church is not an end in and of itself. It is a means to an end of. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. Lord, come quickly. Let's you know, let's bring on the Armageddon. 
Jeff Stucke: You know, justification. Accepting that there is a higher order sanctify sanctification like the process of becoming more like that, and it's like sanctification does not exist in the North American Church. It's like we go to a ******* Bible study. 
Zac Parsons: Hmm. Yeah. Being purified. Yeah, yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: You know, everything's very passive. There's no. 
Speaker 
And. 
Zac Parsons: And and I that's what that's what we've experienced so much. But that's what I'm saying. Like this, this experience from Jordan Hall in particular and and a handful of others, it's like. OK, something is happening. Something is breaking and and and I. I'll admit this as well. I definitely did not see the sort of the rise of sort of new atheism. So you got Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris. Like it definitely seems like that is sort of waning or on like a like it hit its IT hit its peak. But it's critical mass and I heard someone say it was actually the the founder of rebel Wisdom Guy named David Fuller, about a year and a half ago, he said. I think we are entering a post secular era. And that means that the church has to reckon with itself and reckon with all of the baggage that you just described and are still repulsed by. And in the conversations I'm having with Christians, they're repulsed and want to see it purified and sanctified as well. And so. Maybe, maybe we'll, maybe we'll try and try and wrap with the. Like we're moving forward like like Brett and I are going to start this thing, it's called Estuary and it's this point where the the fresh water from a river meets the saltwater of an ocean like that, that actual geographical point is called an usuary. And there's like this explosion of of life and like biology that like doesn't exist anywhere else. There's like a. A weird sort of magic right there to where the saltwater doesn't creep in all the way up and and get into where the fresh. There is and the fresh water doesn't come in and then purify all the salt water. So that's the name that this guy named Paul Vander Clay and John von John Van Donk sort of came up with. And they've got these little sort of pods like all over the world. And Brett and I feel a pretty clear call that we. We need to start one of those here in our community and if, if, whether you want to come or not, I'm officially inviting you and part of what is appropriate there is there's no questions about God that are off limits. 
Jeff Stucke: Well, I would say to you, make haste. I would say to you, the Achilles heel of secular humanism was there was no well, I would say maybe I'll, I don't know if I should say this or not. That universities replace the church and. Universities are now more. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. 
Jeff Stucke: Less about academia and more about indoctrination. 
Zac Parsons: They they seem religious in in the worst way in the worst way. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes. Yes, in the worst way and. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. Which is like if if that gentleman was right, like for entering this sort of post secular age like that, that fervor, that spiritual sort of. Intensity gets applied in different ways, like just just because you leave a church doesn't mean that whatever that sort of church shaped whole or church formed energy goes into a vacuum, it goes somewhere and it animates what you're sort of putting it into. And we are seeing like the indoctrination. Of of people at the university and. 
Jeff Stucke: You know the social sciences are they are more ideological than they are academic. Yeah, it's like and. 
Zac Parsons: Used to be our home. 
Jeff Stucke: The. 
Zac Parsons: One person's been like this disband like he he, he can't practice anymore. 
Jeff Stucke: Jordan, Pete. Hmm. Right. And how could he anyway? I mean, you know. 
Zac Parsons: Well, yeah. But, but even if he, even if he wanted to, his his home discipline has. 
Jeff Stucke: But I right, right. 
Zac Parsons: He's been ostracized, he's been excommunicated. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, which was an event. I mean, if you if you followed his trajectory and you follow. Would the emergence of or the evolution I should say of the social sciences? It was like, yeah, the. 
Zac Parsons: Jonathan Height is documented as well. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah, the irresistible force and the immovable, immovable object are about to. 
Zac Parsons: The collision course was inevitable. 
Jeff Stucke: Yeah. And then it's like so then now where do people go to commune? And. 
Zac Parsons: Well, in Evansville, they can come to our estuary. 
Jeff Stucke: Is it open tomorrow? Or like what *******? 
Zac Parsons: It's Monday. I mean, uh, we're we're working on it. I probably got like 5 texts from him while we've been like, can, can, can we stop so I can. 
Speaker 
What? 
Zac Parsons: Check the text. OK OK. 
Jeff Stucke: Yes, *** **** it, I. Was kind of wondering like. Who's going to lie on this ******* plane? 
Zac Parsons: You're gonna land it. You're gonna land it. How do you wanna land it? 
Jeff Stucke: Well, here's what I would say, and obviously the most of. 
Zac Parsons: We need Greg here. You know, we we maybe Wes will, will will grab a big hook here in a SEC. 
Jeff Stucke: Somebody say hey boys. Here's what I would say, and I work mostly with men, and I am deeply concerned about. The state of men in our society today and and all the data proves that. I mean, we're not depression rate, suicide rates. We ain't getting better, we're getting worse. And marriages in all ways. And part of the reason is men don't do this anymore. They don't sit down and sharpen each other. They don't sit down and say, what do you think about this? They don't sit down and like it it it's critical and I'm not. I'm not saying anything other. Than four men to be healthy for men to function the way that they are designed to function. These kinds of interactions for us to start thinking and putting our ideas out and running the risk of somebody saying that's ******* stupid but not giving up on that. Idea. Keep working until we get these sorts of interactions. Have to start taking place. And then. We have to get them off the bench and in the. Game. 
Zac Parsons: The estuary project is sort of co-ed, you know, it's it's it's for men and women, but it it necessarily needs to be a place where it is appropriate for men to be able to have that conversation in, in front of a a mixed gender sort of experience. But then I'm also still feeling called to this whole men's retreat thing, and I like there's this other sort of thing that's been developing that feels kind of magical, mystical. And again, I could be completely projecting and looking for signs and therefore seeing them and they're not there, but I've got a a mentor tree at the end of April that is like. Coming together in a in a way to where we will be like kind of on a compound that is separate from from everybody before we've done like we've gone to like a State Park and like rented a couple of cabins like, all right, we're going to get into like, a holotropic breathwork session and hope that we don't disturb those those kids over there, you know. Riding around on their bikes and we're, you know, doing this deep breathing with all these tribal noises, like on a little little iPod, we're going to have a completely separate place to do that. We have to get together and, like, grapple with each other. 
Speaker 
Cool. 
Zac Parsons: And say **** you right? 
Jeff Stucke: And then be able right and then be able to. We'll **** you like. 
Zac Parsons: Not just their people. Yes, yes. Like the stuff that men actually really need to be able to do and it's and it's there's a physicality to it and there's an intensity to it and it's wrestling with God. 
Jeff Stucke: This is where. Well, and it's and it's it's honing our skills so that I can go home and have a better conversation with Anne so that I can be more sensitive to my children. It's not, you know, it's not, you know. 
Zac Parsons: Yes. 
Speaker 
Yes. 
Jeff Stucke: We we make it sound like if men are left alone, they're just going to get drunk and go to strip clubs and it's like, no, like, that's not that. There are men who desire this kind of interaction, this kind of refinement, this kind of like, I want to be better to. And I want to be better to my kids. And when I come over here and you smack me and say that's ******* stupid. Don't ever say that to Anne. Jesus. Where did you come up with that **** *** idea? 
Zac Parsons: There's your iron sharpening iron, which is why it what's been great about this. The first mentor shirt I went to was in England and it was great. Wonderful. Like really good hearted. Everyone who was like inspired to come like was was sort of following the same spirit and like we got into a really deep place. But I don't live in England. 
Jeff Stucke: Precisely. 
Zac Parsons: And so like the commitment that I made there was, like, I'm gonna go home and I'm going to call the others. Like, I'm gonna be a Fisher of men to create this in my community. And it isn't just to like, hey, you know, come to Evansville and have this retreat and then go back to wherever you're from. There might be a little bit of that, but what has been shown powerful through the couple of mentor trees that we've had is then. We then see each other in the the life that we do together. 
Jeff Stucke: Right. 
Zac Parsons: And the commitments that the higher calling that we submitted to in those more intimate intense moments are brought back to our attention in the more mundane aspects of life as we see each other and do community and do life together. 
Jeff Stucke: Which I think is. Yeah, and the problem is that everybody's trying to scale it. It's like, no, let's make this on a mass level and it's like, Nope, you can't do that. It loses. It's it. It loses all of it when you try to. 
Zac Parsons: No, no, no, it's it's, it's, it's it's tight. 
Jeff Stucke: Will it? All right, we'll make that the last word because we've been talking for a very long time and I'm about to **** myself. So we'll we'll say. 
Zac Parsons: Alright man. 
Jeff Stucke: We'll put a we'll put. A bookmark here for now. Alright man. OK. 
Zac Parsons: Yeah. OK. Till next time. 
 

From Client to Friend: Remembering Jeff’s Good Friend Craig

As men, we need role models. Sometimes, we find them in our fathers or other family members, other times we discover them in music, movies, or other forms of art and media, and then, if we’re really fortunate, we recognize a most-important role model sitting across from us in the form of a “client”. Here, the teacher becomes the student; the mentor, the mentee. For Jeff, it was a meaningful and unexpected turn down this two-way street where he and his client Craig would enter into a long and fruitful journey of friendship, self-discovery, and the most-profound version of Authentic Love.
Ready to become Man Made? Learn more about Jeff's program to help men become their authentic selves by visiting https://becomingmanmade.com/.
Man Made is produced in partnership with Nectar Podcast Network. Visit https://linktr.ee/nectarpodcastnetwork to learn more.

The Young Yet Wise Giuseppe: A Young Man’s Journey Through Depression

Jeff sits down with the young yet wise, Giuseppe. At just 19 years old, Giuseppe has done the hard work that most men two or three times his age aren’t even aware of and has set himself on a path of self-discovery.   Ready to become Man Made? Learn more about Jeff's program by visiting https://becomingmanmade.com/.Man Made is produced in partnership with Nectar Podcast Network. Visit https://linktr.ee/nectarpodcastnetwork to learn more.

The Great Gift of Being a Dad: Jeff in Conversation With His Kids.

Joined in conversation by his two daughters (eldest and middle) and his son (youngest), Jeff opens the floor to his adult kids asking them to share what they remember about growing up in Christianity before leaving the church, being raised by divorced parents, and how they would rate the job he did as their father.  Ready to become Man Made? Learn more about Jeff's program by visiting https://becomingmanmade.com/. Man Made is produced in partnership with Nectar Podcast Network (Drink up!). Visit https://www.nectarpodcasts.com/ to learn more.

Amy McAllaster - It’s Not About You

Fellow therapist and longtime friend of Jeff's, Amy McAllaster joins Man Made to talk marriage, relationships, and what it's like receiving therapy as a therapist. Holding a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Sociology and two Master’s Degrees, one of which is in Marriage and Family Therapy, Amy McAllaster M.A., LPC, is a counselor and psychotherapist with over 20 years of professional clinical experience. In 2001, Amy started her career in a Dallas, Texas crisis center focused on young men and women before expanding her practice to include adults, couples, and families. She now works and lives with her own family in Littleton, Colorado where she founded and leads the private practice, McAllaster & Associates.  Ready to become Man Made? Visit https://becomingmanmade.com/ to learn more.Man Made is produced in partnership with Nectar Podcast Network (Drink up!). Visit https://www.nectarpodcasts.com/ to learn more.

New Season. Next Chapter.

After facing a sudden health scare turned false alarm, Jeff takes the wheel as a solo driver in the new season of Man Made.   ***For those previously subscribed to Man Made on Buzzsprout, the next several episodes are reissued releases due to previously existing technical issues. Ready to become Man Made? Visit https://becomingmanmade.com/ to learn more.Man Made is now produced in partnership with Nectar Podcast Network (Drink up!). Visit https://www.wallyopus.com/podcasts to learn more.

Let’s Take Your Questions

Greg asks Jeff to answer some questions from men who are on the journey to becoming Man Made.

Interview with Bret Nicholson

Jeff and Greg talk to local lead pastor Bret Nicholson about why the church sucks.

Interview with Rocky

We talk to Rocky Hoard, a former marine committed to helping veterans integrate back to civilian life.

Interview with Claire

In this episode we sit down with Claire as she tells us her story. Join us as we chat about fathers, decisions, and braces.